Please answer this question

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Re: Please answer this question

Post by Pantho »

Ghandi wrote:
satransisuu wrote:I would have to agree with solid and pantho and disagree with daggers. Anyone who has talked to me can confirm i HATE all religion. Religion in no way fuels EVERY war but i do believe it is a force in this world that is capable of much evil. I cant think of a single war that didn't have some kind of religious tones to it. More recent wars can be blamed for having a overly religious government.

I would disagree with pantho in the fact i hate Christians more. Of all Christians and Catholics i have meet, i have found Christians to be more insane. Anyone who praises god for aids killing our soldiers needs to be put away into a mental ward. Any of the religions that stem from Judaism are horrible in my opinion. I will say that Jesus himself minus all of his supposed divine powers, was a great guy. There are so many things from the bible that have no use and are backwards in out society today.

As for the original question i have heard it a long time ago and i believe i figured it out immediately.

This is one of the saddest most uninformed posts I've ever seen. I've thought about explaining why it is that all wars can be traced to religion (as most things that we can truly say we care about lead to our specific religion). Then I thought about publicly dismantling the people that post Biblical quotes and take them completely out of context not only showing their willful ignorance, but their irrational disdain. Then I though about talking to Satran about how many that claim the mark of "Christian" are definitely not Christian such as The Arian Nation, Jehovah Witnesses, Seventh day Adventist...etc. If a man told me he was a quantum physicist then used his fingers to add, I would doubt him. Just as if a man told me he was a Christian then was thankful for mass deaths of innocent people. Then I thought to myself...."self, this is a gaming forum, and not only will nobody listen, but why take the risk of insulting my friends?"
I disagree.

But I also can't be bothered to argue :)
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Re: Please answer this question

Post by Myrlin »

Ghandi wrote:This is one of the saddest most uninformed posts I've ever seen. I've thought about explaining why it is that all wars can be traced to religion (as most things that we can truly say we care about lead to our specific religion). Then I thought about publicly dismantling the people that post Biblical quotes and take them completely out of context not only showing their willful ignorance, but their irrational disdain. Then I though about talking to Satran about how many that claim the mark of "Christian" are definitely not Christian such as The Arian Nation, Jehovah Witnesses, Seventh day Adventist...etc. If a man told me he was a quantum physicist then used his fingers to add, I would doubt him. Just as if a man told me he was a Christian then was thankful for mass deaths of innocent people. Then I thought to myself...."self, this is a gaming forum, and not only will nobody listen, but why take the risk of insulting my friends?"

Wow my history teacher when right when he said Ghandi was wise.
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Re: Please answer this question

Post by Solid Rock »

Ghandi wrote:This is one of the saddest most uninformed posts I've ever seen. I've thought about explaining why it is that all wars can be traced to religion (as most things that we can truly say we care about lead to our specific religion). Then I thought about publicly dismantling the people that post Biblical quotes and take them completely out of context not only showing their willful ignorance, but their irrational disdain. Then I though about talking to Satran about how many that claim the mark of "Christian" are definitely not Christian such as The Arian Nation, Jehovah Witnesses, Seventh day Adventist...etc. If a man told me he was a quantum physicist then used his fingers to add, I would doubt him. Just as if a man told me he was a Christian then was thankful for mass deaths of innocent people. Then I thought to myself...."self, this is a gaming forum, and not only will nobody listen, but why take the risk of insulting my friends?"

I also disagree, and I would argue. Only I don't think any argument I could make, regardless of how informed it may be, would actually convince you that your wrong. So im just gunna quote myself and leave it at that.
Solid Rock wrote:Dunno about that, World War I was over political strife and WWII was a war of conquest. So was the napoleonic war's, and the 2 year war of the mid 1800's. The American civil war was fought over ideological differences and the American revolutionary war was a war of independence. Not to mention the Korean and Vietnam war's most recently which were battles between political ideal's. And the first and second gulf war most recently which seem to be primarily economically motivated.
If you go back further you've a couple of dozen war's of succession within the Britain alone, not to mention the almost constant state of conflict of the ancient world which was almost exclusively about territory. The Roman's did not subjugate the entire known world for the sake of religion but because they could. And nor did Alexander build an empire within a few decades for the sake of spreading the greek pantheon, he did it for glory.

Yes there has been a large amount of silly crusades and holy wars, but its not by any means the primary cause of strife in the world.
Edit:
Myrlin wrote:Wow my history teacher when right when he said Ghandi was wise.
Actually Ghandi was abit of a racist prick, especially in his younger day's. Not sure he can be entirely blamed for that though, he was a lawyer after all. Being a prick was in his nature.
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Re: Please answer this question

Post by Pantho »

I think my reply was misunderstood as I actually deleted my argument ;) -

Altho all war can be traced to something relegious shit, it is most of the time an excuse.

Even if there was no relegion we would still have all the wars - end off
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Re: Please answer this question

Post by satransisuu »

Ghandi wrote:
satransisuu wrote:I would have to agree with solid and pantho and disagree with daggers. Anyone who has talked to me can confirm i HATE all religion. Religion in no way fuels EVERY war but i do believe it is a force in this world that is capable of much evil. I cant think of a single war that didn't have some kind of religious tones to it. More recent wars can be blamed for having a overly religious government.

I would disagree with pantho in the fact i hate Christians more. Of all Christians and Catholics i have meet, i have found Christians to be more insane. Anyone who praises god for aids killing our soldiers needs to be put away into a mental ward. Any of the religions that stem from Judaism are horrible in my opinion. I will say that Jesus himself minus all of his supposed divine powers, was a great guy. There are so many things from the bible that have no use and are backwards in out society today.

As for the original question i have heard it a long time ago and i believe i figured it out immediately.

This is one of the saddest most uninformed posts I've ever seen. I've thought about explaining why it is that all wars can be traced to religion (as most things that we can truly say we care about lead to our specific religion). Then I thought about publicly dismantling the people that post Biblical quotes and take them completely out of context not only showing their willful ignorance, but their irrational disdain. Then I though about talking to Satran about how many that claim the mark of "Christian" are definitely not Christian such as The Arian Nation, Jehovah Witnesses, Seventh day Adventist...etc. If a man told me he was a quantum physicist then used his fingers to add, I would doubt him. Just as if a man told me he was a Christian then was thankful for mass deaths of innocent people. Then I thought to myself...."self, this is a gaming forum, and not only will nobody listen, but why take the risk of insulting my friends?"

HOLY SH*T!! ITS GHANDI! first off where have you been we need to chat! next i dont think im misinformed, i can only speak from my own experience. I never said those people are true christians, much more i believe they are nowhere close to being christian. I do however know they CLAIM they are and they do things in the name of it. I would agree with the american founding fathers that religion should be practiced behind closed doors and away from eyes, and jesus would agree (Matthew 6: 5-6).

Off topic, seriously ghandi you need to get on vent or get a hold of me or something, i totally miss chatting with you! :D
FN: hey sat, what did you tell your parents when you left?
Me: i told them i was going out to study
FN: ......................
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Re: Please answer this question

Post by Ghandi »

satransisuu wrote:HOLY SH*T!! ITS GHANDI! first off where have you been we need to chat! next i dont think im misinformed, i can only speak from my own experience. I never said those people are true christians, much more i believe they are nowhere close to being christian. I do however know they CLAIM they are and they do things in the name of it. I would agree with the american founding fathers that religion should be practiced behind closed doors and away from eyes, and jesus would agree (Matthew 6: 5-6).

Off topic, seriously ghandi you need to get on vent or get a hold of me or something, i totally miss chatting with you! :D
Dude! I hope all is well. I would love to get on vent some time. I will be playing some Diablo 3 when it comes out, but I have so much on my plate right now there is literally no "me time" if you know what I mean. As an off topic, will the illustrious XR crew be playing any Diablo 3? I certainly hope so.

I hate to drag a dead horse (and if it's not dead, I'm sure to kill it here), but I would like to rebut your post. Your original post stated that you hated Christians. This is much like me saying I hate blacks, gays, or Muslims. Of course this is ridiculous. Why would I hate somebody simply because of the color of their skin, sexual preference, or in some cases the religion they were born into? I also wanted to point out how homogenized the word "Christian" has become. Just because people glom the word Christian on to their profile doesn't make it so. Again Aryan Nation, KKK, are very good examples of that.

Now, If you agree with American's founding fathers about religion, let me enlighten you. Every single state constitution references God. Every denomination of our currency references God. You can't walk a single block in downtown Washington D.C. without reading Bible verses etched in stone (some walls of bible versus). Most Court rooms you are required to swear on the bible to testify. In many states you had to sign an avadavat stating that you believed in God, Jesus Christ, and the Bible as divinely inspired to even be considered for public office (FYI, the last state to remove this requirement was South Carolina in 1989 :yikes: ). I could go on, but as you can see there is a pattern here: it's not "behind closed doors and away from eyes". As you can guess, Jesus didn't think that His religion should be kept behind closed doors either. During the versus you quoted, Jesus was on a mountain speaking to as many as 50,000 people. In fact, directly after the versus you quoted, He is praying in public.

Your friendly historian,
Ghandi
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Re: Please answer this question

Post by Solid Rock »

Ghandi wrote:Now, If you agree with American's founding fathers about religion, let me enlighten you. Every single state constitution references God. Every denomination of our currency references God. You can't walk a single block in downtown Washington D.C. without reading Bible verses etched in stone (some walls of bible versus). Most Court rooms you are required to swear on the bible to testify. In many states you had to sign an avadavat stating that you believed in God, Jesus Christ, and the Bible as divinely inspired to even be considered for public office (FYI, the last state to remove this requirement was South Carolina in 1989 :yikes: ). I could go on, but as you can see there is a pattern here: it's not "behind closed doors and away from eyes". As you can guess, Jesus didn't think that His religion should be kept behind closed doors either. During the versus you quoted, Jesus was on a mountain speaking to as many as 50,000 people. In fact, directly after the versus you quoted, He is praying in public.

Your friendly historian,
Ghandi
Much of this stuff was however instated decades after all of the founding fathers had croaked. Id also like to corect you on your rather ludicreus claim that every constitution references god, while it is true that most western countries have divine references in them these are merely a relic of the times in wich the documents were written. Atheism in the 18th century was still very much a taboo subject. However nations who overthrew the hereditary ruler's in more recent times have little or no mention of god in their constitution's. The Soviet constitution of 1924 and later the Russian constitution of 1993 being prime examples of this. Not to mention the myriad of countries with a non mid eastern religion, I doubt the Indian constitution references god at any point.
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Re: Please answer this question

Post by Ghandi »

Solid Rock wrote:Much of this stuff was however instated decades after all of the founding fathers had croaked.
Actually that is incorrect. All of my above statements were instituted within a decade after the United States Constitution, most of them were instituted prior to it.
Solid Rock wrote:Id also like to corect you on your rather ludicreus claim that every constitution references god, while it is true that most western countries have divine references in them these are merely a relic of the times in wich the documents were written. Atheism in the 18th century was still very much a taboo subject. However nations who overthrew the hereditary ruler's in more recent times have little or no mention of god in their constitution's. The Soviet constitution of 1924 and later the Russian constitution of 1993 being prime examples of this. Not to mention the myriad of countries with a non mid eastern religion, I doubt the Indian constitution references god at any point.
When I said "state constitutions" I assumed you would understand I meant United States state constitutions. I know very little of foreign constitutions.

EDIT: Just as an FYI. Interestingly enough, the Indian Constitution does mention God, it also makes the President swear an oath "in the name of God"....

It can be found here Constitution of India.

EDITED to fix link.
Last edited by Ghandi on Sun May 17, 2009 6:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Please answer this question

Post by Solid Rock »

Ghandi wrote:
Solid Rock wrote:Much of this stuff was however instated decades after all of the founding fathers had croaked.
Actually that is incorrect. All of my above statements were instituted within a decade after the United States Constitution, most of them were instituted prior to it.
Solid Rock wrote:Id also like to corect you on your rather ludicreus claim that every constitution references god, while it is true that most western countries have divine references in them these are merely a relic of the times in wich the documents were written. Atheism in the 18th century was still very much a taboo subject. However nations who overthrew the hereditary ruler's in more recent times have little or no mention of god in their constitution's. The Soviet constitution of 1924 and later the Russian constitution of 1993 being prime examples of this. Not to mention the myriad of countries with a non mid eastern religion, I doubt the Indian constitution references god at any point.
When I said "state constitutions" I assumed you would understand I meant United States state constitutions. I know very little of foreign constitutions.

EDIT: Just as an FYI. Interestingly enough, the Indian Constitution does mention God, it also makes the President swear an oath "in the name of God"....

It can be found here Constitution of India.
The united states only has 1 constitution. And your link is dead.
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Re: Please answer this question

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Solid Rock wrote:The united states only has 1 constitution. And your link is dead.
Each state in the union has it's own constitution also, Solid. The US Constitution defines what powers are given to the federal government (printing money, common defense, etc) and everything else is left up to the states.

Quite a few of the federal laws that are passed don't have actually have any power behind them because the federal government doesn't have the authority to enforce them. For example, raising the drinking age to 21. The Federal law which did this actually "suggested" the states pass a law to raise their state drinking age to 21 in order continue to receive 100% of the federal money used to maintain roads and highways. Louisiana held out a long time and kept the drinking age at 18 until just a few years ago when they finally raised it to 21.

The US civil war was actually a war over states rights with slavery being the catalyst issue. The southern states wanted to keep slavery legal and they felt they had the right to make that decision. The northern states wanted it abolished and felt that the federal government should step in and enforce it. Well, it's a bit more nuanced that that, but for sake of argument that's the simplified version.
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Re: Please answer this question

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Lachlan wrote:
Solid Rock wrote:The united states only has 1 constitution. And your link is dead.
Each state in the union has it's own constitution also, Solid. The US Constitution defines what powers are given to the federal government (printing money, common defense, etc) and everything else is left up to the states.

Quite a few of the federal laws that are passed don't have actually have any power behind them because the federal government doesn't have the authority to enforce them. For example, raising the drinking age to 21. The Federal law which did this actually "suggested" the states pass a law to raise their state drinking age to 21 in order continue to receive 100% of the federal money used to maintain roads and highways. Louisiana held out a long time and kept the drinking age at 18 until just a few years ago when they finally raised it to 21.

The US civil war was actually a war over states rights with slavery being the catalyst issue. The southern states wanted to keep slavery legal and they felt they had the right to make that decision. The northern states wanted it abolished and felt that the federal government should step in and enforce it. Well, it's a bit more nuanced that that, but for sake of argument that's the simplified version.
But the link is still dead. :hippie:

Mind you in this context only the one federal constitution is relevant as the question concerned the wievs of the founding fathers on the subject of religion. Indeed many of the current states did not as of yet have their own constitution or even existed at the time.
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Re: Please answer this question

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Re: Please answer this question

Post by Ghandi »

Solid Rock wrote:But the link is still dead. :hippie:
Link is fixed, sorry about that.
Solid Rock wrote:Mind you in this context only the one federal constitution is relevant as the question concerned the wievs of the founding fathers on the subject of religion.
Why is it that you think that only one document can be used to discover the views of the men that founded the country? Pretty rediculous considering that a person in search of the truth would read every document they could get their hands on to discover it.
Solid Rock wrote:Indeed many of the current states did not as of yet have their own constitution or even existed at the time.
I am not trying to flame you, but if you're only going to write up your oppinion (which is entirely incorrect) then this is a fruitless argument. Nearly all states had their constitution enstated within 10 years of the United States constitution (most in the same year 1776) with the obvious exceptions of Alaska and Texas.
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Re: Please answer this question

Post by Lachlan »

Ghandi wrote:Nearly all states had their constitution enstated within 10 years of the United States constitution (most in the same year 1776) with the obvious exceptions of Alaska and Texas.
The current US Constitution was ratified in 1789. Between 1781 and 1789 the government was defined in the Articles of Confederation. And.. most states were not states in 1776 or even 1786..Only 16 of 50 states joined the union before 1800 (here). I have no idea what Texas (1845) and Alaska (1954) would have in common????

Here is the list of US State Constitutions and the date their most recent constitution was ratified.

BTW, I am not taking sides in this argument.. I'm just making sure the facts used are correct. :)
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Re: Please answer this question

Post by Ghandi »

Lachlan wrote:The current US Constitution was ratified in 1789. Between 1781 and 1789 the government was defined in the Articles of Confederation. And.. most states were not states in 1776 or even 1786..Only 16 of 50 states joined the union before 1800
You are absolutely right.
Lachlan wrote:I have no idea what Texas (1845) and Alaska (1954) would have in common????
They were purchased or signed a treaty many years after the U.S. constitution was enstated.

EDIT: and for posterities sake, the list that you provided is misleading. The constitutions that are listed are are the "current" constitutions. I.E. Alabama's constitution first constitution was ratified in 1819 and developed more than two decades before it's ratification. The list shows the current constitution in effect as 1901 (which is correct). It shows New Hampshire as 1793, yet it was 1784...etc.
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