OnLive: The End of Games Platforms?

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OnLive: The End of Games Platforms?

Post by Lachlan »

At the last GDC the industry big brains were sat around telling us how games would one day be remotely rendered on big computing clusters and then streamed to our TVs. The big unveil at this year’s GDC has proved them to be correct. Maybe. OnLive is a service on which you use superfast broadband (1.5mbps minimum) to play games on a remote server. You just plug it in to any “entry level” PC or Mac, or hook it up to your TV, and play. It doesn’t matter if you don’t have the latest 3D card: because the remote server does the rendering and streams the result to you. That’s the theory anyway, and it’s a theory a bunch of big name publishers have signed up to.
This is existing games and it sounds like it makes all games platform-agnostic (Xbox 360 game, PS3 game, PC game, Mac game, etc).

It's explained much better in the video.
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Re: OnLive: The End of Games Platforms?

Post by Pantho »

wow, epic :D

I can't see why this wouldn't work really :s ...

I mean, wow ... This could decomate PC sales lol, could even demolish PC Gaming builds *_*

Want to experience PC Gaming, then buy the ONLive Console! .. err what ;)

Or

"ONLive" The Multi-Console!
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Re: OnLive: The End of Games Platforms?

Post by Coo »

Oh my... this looks very promising. If they're able to get enough gaming companies on board and price the service right this could be a huge product.
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Re: OnLive: The End of Games Platforms?

Post by eNut »

Just for illustration, at 1920x1200@60hz you're talking about 4.4Gb/s worth of info. It sounds good, but it'll never work in practice.
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Re: OnLive: The End of Games Platforms?

Post by Lachlan »

eNut wrote:Just for illustration, at 1920x1200@60hz you're talking about 4.4Gb/s worth of info. It sounds good, but it'll never work in practice.
You're making the assumption that each pixel is refreshed 60 times a second. That's a hardware requirement of the monitor, so you would only need to transmit the pixels that change. Apply compression and it does seem feasible. However, I agree that it that if it was easy then existing remote desktop apps would already support openGL/directX 3D graphics.

I have doubts as well but more about scalability at the server cluster. All of the computing power to play these games is at the server and it's a shared resource. How do you scale this in a way that it's not horrendously expensive and the performance of your game doesn't suck?

Every few years we go through this cycle. Let's make everything centralized. No, wait.. let's make everything decentralized. Cloud computing vs. distributed computing. Mainframe vs. client/server. Thin vs. thick clients... etc etc etc.
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Re: OnLive: The End of Games Platforms?

Post by eNut »

Lachlan wrote:
eNut wrote:Just for illustration, at 1920x1200@60hz you're talking about 4.4Gb/s worth of info. It sounds good, but it'll never work in practice.
You're making the assumption that each pixel is refreshed 60 times a second. That's a hardware requirement of the monitor, so you would only need to transmit the pixels that change. Apply compression and it does seem feasible. However, I agree that it that if it was easy then existing remote desktop apps would already support openGL/directX 3D graphics.
If you assume a constant 10Mb/s on the client side, which is highly optimistic, you would need to reduce that stream of data to 0.2% of the original. Even if you left out 90% of the pixels you'd still need to compress the rest to 2%. I don't think you can find *text* compressors that do that well, and text is some of the most highly compressible data there is.
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Re: OnLive: The End of Games Platforms?

Post by Lachlan »

eNut wrote:If you assume a constant 10Mb/s on the client side, which is highly optimistic, you would need to reduce that stream of data to 0.2% of the original. Even if you left out 90% of the pixels you'd still need to compress the rest to 2%. I don't think you can find *text* compressors that do that well, and text is some of the most highly compressible data there is.
Yes and no. It depends on the compression algorithm and the data being compressed. It's true that winzip compresses text data much better than video data. You also can't compress text data using a lossy algorithm, but you can with video data. For example, H264 can take a DVD-quality video stream down to 8Mb/s.

Fortunately with video data, pixels values around a given area (say an 8x8 block) are usually the same or very similar. So, you can encode the degree of difference in that block into a single piece of information that allows the decompression algorithm on the other end to reconstruct that block of pixels. The downside to compression, of course, is that is uses more CPU resources unless you can utilize dedicated encoder/decoder hardware.

This was just an example, I doubt that the same compress algorithm used for video can be utilized for this. The RDP protocol, for example, hooks directly into the graphics subsystem in windows so it gets the same events as the application does and can know what's changed on the screen without polling through video memory looking at every pixel. I think it would be much more efficient to do something similar, but hook directly into the DirectX/OpenGL APIs to determine what pixels are changing, compressing them, and transmitting them.
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Re: OnLive: The End of Games Platforms?

Post by Pantho »

I have faith that the software companies signing up for this theory, will have done alot more thinking on the matter.

And must have deemed it possible, to even try it. Fairly sure they will have taken into account things like compression ratio's compared to bandwidth.

But, we are talking about insane internet speeds these days... I have 10Mbs, and that is the slowest I could get in my area, granted my sister 1mile away can only get 4Mbs. I can get upto 50Mbs if I pay for it ...

See my point ?
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Re: OnLive: The End of Games Platforms?

Post by Lachlan »

The minimum requirement for OnLive is 1.5Mbps and the resolution scales up as you have more bandwidth. I'd have to go watch the video again for the specifics, but I know he used an example. Remember, this is designed to run as a browser plug-in or via a mini-console device you plug into your TV. I doubt you are going to get the same performance or resolution as a full screen locally running game.
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Re: OnLive: The End of Games Platforms?

Post by Pantho »

Lachlan wrote:The minimum requirement for OnLive is 1.5Mbps and the resolution scales up as you have more bandwidth. I'd have to go watch the video again for the specifics, but I know he used an example. Remember, this is designed to run as a browser plug-in or via a mini-console device you plug into your TV. I doubt you are going to get the same performance or resolution as a full screen locally running game.
I dunno, I think the idea is to get the same performance and resolution as a local game.

They said 1.5mbs will run at normal TV resolution, upto 4.4mbs which will be standard HD something, I forget specifics.
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Re: OnLive: The End of Games Platforms?

Post by Chosen One »

Is there a point to upgrading a PC for the future then? :|
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Re: OnLive: The End of Games Platforms?

Post by Pantho »

Chosen One wrote:Is there a point to upgrading a PC for the future then? :|
Yes ... simply put -

I think we are looking at 5years easy before this kind of platform could be widly used ...

But, once it is I suppose pc upgrading could become somwhat obsolete.

Although imagine the server support needed if it became BIG ...

Just hosting the gaming servers consoles like Wii crashed with the amount of people playing MarioKart...
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Re: OnLive: The End of Games Platforms?

Post by Solid Rock »

Ideally if this catches on you would only need the bare essentials necessary to operate your interface, but I imagine the logistics of making it all work are rather mind boggling and it will likely be a while before it can out corner traditional platforms in means of reliability.
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Re: OnLive: The End of Games Platforms?

Post by CMaster »

Why is noone mentioning the lag?
Every time you press a button on your controller, you will have to wait for a round trip. Sure, that 30-40ms to your fave TF2 server may not bother you, but that's because of the world of adjustments to ensure that you don't. When you have to wait for your menu press, or your mouse momvent to look around to have a response...

That and the combination of bandwidth and subscription costs promise to be quite high. And how about user created content and customization? Will they dissappear?
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Re: OnLive: The End of Games Platforms?

Post by Pantho »

CMaster wrote:Why is noone mentioning the lag?
Every time you press a button on your controller, you will have to wait for a round trip. Sure, that 30-40ms to your fave TF2 server may not bother you, but that's because of the world of adjustments to ensure that you don't. When you have to wait for your menu press, or your mouse momvent to look around to have a response...

That and the combination of bandwidth and subscription costs promise to be quite high. And how about user created content and customization? Will they dissappear?
I was thinking about that Cmaster.

What specificly came to mind where things like FPS Or racing games.

The reaction times to a GOOD 10-20ms server are amazingly fast, the Team menu in CSS for example actually waits for a reply from server after pressing 1 or 2 for Terrors/Counter Terrors.

But, with moving aorund, specifically firing a weapon this reaction time could be abit more annoying ...

Unless :s .... What if the game server was hosted in the same place as the OnLive server ?
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