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Ozambabbaz
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Monk discussion

Post by Ozambabbaz »

as some of you guys may have noticed, i really like monks...no, i really do

but the discussion on the official forums usually fades into flames or the land of forgotten wanking, i'll just pop what suggestions i've made lately here, so we might have a fruitful discussion and u guys might actually prove any old prejudice i may have incorrect.

PPUs:
remove Holy Heal completely, keep Group Holy Heal

nerf Blessed Heal by 25% leave Group Blessed Heal as it is

make Shelter/Deflector self-cast only, again keep group versions in-game

make foreign cast support-/combat-/resist-boosters have half duration
Monks in general

Add lock-on reticle with percentage based damage instead of chance to miss formulae, both regard heals and APU spells

Add LoS

Remove locational damage on Holy Lightning

Nerf range again on APU spells, 15% i'd reckon

what do YOU think?
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Post by Freaky Fryd »

All that sounds like it might even things up a bit...

The half duration of boosters probably isn't necessary, as 10 minutes isn't
all that long...

This doesn't really hinder levellers all that much, and it would help pvp
become more based on each person's skills, rather than one person's skill.
(Example: eliminate one PPU making up for 5 people that are crap)

I think psi pool cost might have to be reduced a bit for the group spells though.
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Re: Monk discussion

Post by NoNo »

Ozambabbaz wrote:
PPUs:
remove Holy Heal completely, keep Group Holy Heal

nerf Blessed Heal by 25% leave Group Blessed Heal as it is

make Shelter/Deflector self-cast only, again keep group versions in-game

make foreign cast support-/combat-/resist-boosters have half duration

ok got to respond to this :P ::::
#remove holy heal- erm no ta
#nerf blessed heal- dont really care :P
#shelter/deflector self cast only would be alrite i spose, but that would mean having to keep group and self buffs in belt, would mean alot and i do mean alot more switching around
#why make combat boosters and all that half duration??? they run out very quickly as it is.

interesting ideas oz, but to be honest, if they removed holy heal from ppus and left me with only group id quit this game altogether in a second. By their very nature PPU's have absolutely no offensive ability, which is fine as it is balanced by their huge defencive abilities. Leaving them with holy heal would mean that they would heal every1 and every thing within their combat perimiter, plus its considerably weaker then holy heal. Parashock is the only problem with ppus that i can see (apart from a huge lack in the rares department, but thats not a major issue), hence why i refrain from using it. People are always saying like I can take on some1, but then they get a ppu. Well thats a 2v1 situation, and in that case if the other person wasnt a ppu 9/10 times ud loose anyway.

As for the blessed heal. To be honest i dont particulary care if they nerf it, its not useful, but if they were to remove holy heal aswell as nerf this (although id be gone), it would make ppus considerably weaker, which to be honest isnt fair to those of us who like our ppus, and use them in the way in the way they were intended. Simply because some ppl exploit the use of ppus, eg making an entire clan out of ppus, doesnt justify punisshing those of us who use them properly.

Ive always been kind of in the middle on the self cast shelter/def thing. It would be ok if it werent for the fact that it both buffs all enemies and mobs in the ppus vacinity. Also with the amount of combat buffs and health buffs around it would increase the amount of switching around id ave to do by about 10 fold. So theyd need to give me an extra quickbelt before they do that :P

The last one confuses me so much its not funny. Why would u want their duration halved?? They last shit all as it is. Nerfing their duration anymore would mean having to rebuff evry 3 seconds, at the moment i could even say their duration could be increased.

Some interesting ideas oz, hope this proved to be some sort of constructive criticism :P
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Re: Monk discussion

Post by Ozambabbaz »

NoNo wrote:
ok got to respond to this :P ::::
#remove holy heal- erm no ta
#nerf blessed heal- dont really care :P
#shelter/deflector self cast only would be alrite i spose, but that would mean having to keep group and self buffs in belt, would mean alot and i do mean alot more switching around
#why make combat boosters and all that half duration??? they run out very quickly as it is.

interesting ideas oz, but to be honest, if they removed holy heal from ppus and left me with only group id quit this game altogether in a second. By their very nature PPU's have absolutely no offensive ability, which is fine as it is balanced by their huge defencive abilities. Leaving them with holy heal would mean that they would heal every1 and every thing within their combat perimiter, plus its considerably weaker then holy heal. Parashock is the only problem with ppus that i can see (apart from a huge lack in the rares department, but thats not a major issue), hence why i refrain from using it. People are always saying like I can take on some1, but then they get a ppu. Well thats a 2v1 situation, and in that case if the other person wasnt a ppu 9/10 times ud loose anyway.
The objective is twofold.

As far as i have seen, Blessed heal combined with holy shelter and deflector + some dancing is more than enough to survive a 2-3 combats chars combined punishment, even if 3 is cutting it, why should a PPU have the ability to outheal 3 guys concentrated firepower? it's a support character and as such shouldn't be fighting alone. As for group heals heal everybody, that would mean strap-on PPUs is a thing of the past, at least in their current form.

Secondly, a PPUs fighting force would then have to hold the lines to allow a friendly only Holy Group Heal, might even make a tactical retreat and thus coordinate as a team. Could make a break in the current tactics of "strap-on and swarm" OP wars that we play.
NoNo wrote: As for the blessed heal. To be honest i dont particulary care if they nerf it, its not useful, but if they were to remove holy heal aswell as nerf this (although id be gone), it would make ppus considerably weaker, which to be honest isnt fair to those of us who like our ppus, and use them in the way in the way they were intended. Simply because some ppl exploit the use of ppus, eg making an entire clan out of ppus, doesnt justify punisshing those of us who use them properly.
I hear ya, and no, nobody likes to be nerfed, but turn the picture around. Single PPUs that master the current spell loadout, coupling with a likewise PPU setup combat char effectively mullifies up to and beyond 5 offensive chars. Simply because some like their PPUs, justifies that other people must suffer badly? I just wish you didn't like PPUs, it'd be easier on me ticker :oops:

*If*, (heaven knows i'm not deciding these things, just stating my opinions and ideas), this was implemented, yes PPUs would be weakened in terms of their own survivability, but certainly not vulnerable.
NoNo wrote: Ive always been kind of in the middle on the self cast shelter/def thing. It would be ok if it werent for the fact that it both buffs all enemies and mobs in the ppus vacinity. Also with the amount of combat buffs and health buffs around it would increase the amount of switching around id ave to do by about 10 fold. So theyd need to give me an extra quickbelt before they do that :P
Everybody else struggles with QBs as well, except those that have strap-on PPUs and Tanks, group S/D, self-cast S/D, Holy Group Heal, Blessed Heal is 6 slots, thats 4 left for boosters and psi-booster + preferred PPU stuff.

Your saying earlier on with the 2vs 1 situations etc, why should a PPU have it on a silver plate? Might want to group 2 PPUs together, 1 acting as group buffer, the other tagging single heals and boosters thus having a fallback PPU and a Sweeper PPU, e.g teamplay and tactics
NoNo wrote: The last one confuses me so much its not funny. Why would u want their duration halved?? They last shit all as it is. Nerfing their duration anymore would mean having to rebuff evry 3 seconds, at the moment i could even say their duration could be increased.
Also two-fold, this would _heavily_ encourage PPUs to say "get your own damn buffs" thus tolling on the PPU dependant setups. When you look at the lvl 3 boosters, in terms of skillpoint gain, it is _obscene_. Would reduce the "Combat class + strap-on PPU" raider teams, since it's more stressful.

Secondly this, along with the other stuff, strengthens the PE :D
NoNo wrote: Some interesting ideas oz, hope this proved to be some sort of constructive criticism :P
I'm very grateful you took that much time, and i appreciate it the most from the experienced PPUs, since they have an idea of what i'm talking about (giga KK-inscribed-sledgehammer NERF!) :? 8) :lol:

And i hope i don't come across as ignorant of your views, plz continue with argueing/debating/flaming me whatever you feel like :wink:
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Post by NoNo »

The objective is twofold.

As far as i have seen, Blessed heal combined with holy shelter and deflector + some dancing is more than enough to survive a 2-3 combats chars combined punishment, even if 3 is cutting it, why should a PPU have the ability to outheal 3 guys concentrated firepower? it's a support character and as such shouldn't be fighting alone. As for group heals heal everybody, that would mean strap-on PPUs is a thing of the past, at least in their current form.

Secondly, a PPUs fighting force would then have to hold the lines to allow a friendly only Holy Group Heal, might even make a tactical retreat and thus coordinate as a team. Could make a break in the current tactics of "strap-on and swarm" OP wars that we play.
why should a ppu be able to outheal 3 guys? for the simple reason that it has no attack so it needs to be able to survive that kind of a beating. I can sort of see your point behind it, but ppus need this :P
*If*, (heaven knows i'm not deciding these things, just stating my opinions and ideas), this was implemented, yes PPUs would be weakened in terms of their own survivability, but certainly not vulnerable.
er yes they would. (a) group heal takes slightly longer to cast, (b)healing myself would heal every1 else (good and bad point), (c) ppus would be alot more vulnerable. People would simply go straight for the ppu and try to eliminate it. With n00b buffs, antibuff, poison and the rest of the shite that gets thrown at me, with holy heal gone i would be very vulnerable. Without shields i can take a few hits from a hl or fa or what not but with no holy heal ppu = dead with no shields.

The point with ppus is that they are a defensive class ONLY. They have No offence that could threaten any1. This is the justification for their defence. As for the 2v1 situation i was talking about say apu + ppu v tank, and when ppl loose to that its like, get rid of the ppu and then try it. Now if u get rid of the ppu, some other class is likely to be in there so it could be apu + tank v tank which will equal death twice as fast. its a 2v1 situation either way if im making any sense :)

No you dont sound ignorant, as I said some interesting ideas, but unless ppus are given some sort of considerably offensive ability (honestly i like mine the way he is ;)), there would be little justification behind nerfing them so badly, so kk will probably do it :P.
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Post by Melonie »

I have to say this. I love my monks. KK will do nothing of any sort to nerf Monks. They can't even whip their arse so why won't ppl just give it up on monks. They are overpowered and you can't kill a ppu unless he lets you.
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Post by NoNo »

lol.....cant kill a ppu unless he lets u. Dont know if id say that now. In fact id say its pretty easy to kill a ppu with a bit of skill and know how. N00b buffs are gay but are an efficient tactic, then theres trading and teaming :P, then theres poison. If you cant do any of them ur crap :P, j/k seriously thought best way to hit a ppu is to strike all its resists at once, throw a few dozen poison stacks on it, then hit it with a mix of fa and hl works nearly :P.
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Post by Faid »

whoah now Melonie, I've Killed plenty of PPU's and I assure you none of them let me do it :) It takes skill with the debuff and and anti-heal.

I think if they were to Nerf the PPU a lot of people would stop playing that class, OP wars would be over so quickly it wouldn't even be fun to fight, and people would continually bitch about how shitty it was to nerf ppu's.

But very interesting points though :D
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Post by Ozambabbaz »

that argument is always raised "OP wars would be over in an instant" yes of course if people just storm the place in your run of the mill CounterStrike way, sure.

Whenever we get outmonked, any old op war is over damn fast as well.

Change isn't always bad, adapting is good.

Increasing any wepons damage output, making it easier to cap weapons etc only brings more PPUs to each and every encounter.

Reducing PPU dependance would make for smoother gameplay and more teamplay, not this

PPU + any other char

but actually

a full team :shock:
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Post by KGB »

they need to bring spirit mod back :)
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Re: Monk discussion

Post by FN »

Ozambabbaz wrote:- remove Holy Heal completely, keep Group Holy Heal
Disagree. PPUs should stay nearly invincible. That's the fun of playing the class. I've been seeing too many other MMORPG's where the 'healing' class is vital to a team, but fall over dead in high wind. I like the way NC's PPUs are as God's among men, but they should flat out not be able to kill anyone except with a Soulcluster. Remove the damage from Para's completely! However, I *do* think Heals, Shelters, and Deflectors, should be self-cast only, leaving GROUP and SANCTUM spells the weapon of choice for PPUs.

All classes should have a choice of paths to follow: Spies and PEs can go Hightech or Lowtech; Tanks can go Melee or Heavy Weapons; APUs should be able to go Damage Dealing or 'Exotic' (Damage Boost and other character altering effects); and PPUs should be able to go Life-based or Shield-based, being proficient in either healing or sheilding. Just my opinion. All classes shoudl have a solo method of survival though, i.e. Spies can stealth to escape, PPUs can heal to escape, Tanks have pure CON and resists to escape, PEs have decent CON, resists, and should have decent shields to escape, and APUs have... erm.... Genreps... to escape?
Ozambabbaz wrote:- nerf Blessed Heal by 25% leave Group Blessed Heal as it is
Again, I don't agree for the reasons mentioned above.
Ozambabbaz wrote:- make Shelter/Deflector self-cast only, again keep group versions in-game
Agreed, again for the reasons above.
Ozambabbaz wrote:- make foreign cast support-/combat-/resist-boosters have half duration
I see this as a bit unneccessary. These boosters aren't the types of things that make or break a battle. I'd say leave them as-is.
Ozambabbaz wrote:- Add lock-on reticle with percentage based damage instead of chance to miss formulae, both regard heals and APU spells
For APUs, yes. But for PPUs... I don't think the h/s/d should be cast on others so *shrug* But APUs, yes.
Ozambabbaz wrote:- Add LoS
Agreed.
Ozambabbaz wrote:- Remove locational damage on Holy Lightning
I think APU spells that come from the sky should have locational dmg hitting the head or shoulders. Spells that are cast from the APU (i.e. Flame Avalanche) should have locational dmg wherever they hit.
Ozambabbaz wrote:- Nerf range again on APU spells, 15% i'd reckon
It's already been nerfed, but 15% more wouldn't be so bad... but I think it would be better to leave it as it is, just making the cap harder to reach. A Rifle Spy should be able to outrange an APU no problem. The APU should have more or less the range of a Pistol Spy methinks. But if the APU goes straight PSI Use in his INT instead of picking up a tradeskill, the reward should be more range. But under 200 PSI Use should keep you at Pistol Spy range.
KGB wrote:they need to bring spirit mod back :)
100% Agreed. Add the "ticking down counter" that Mosquito Drones have on heals.
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Post by Chosen One »

BRING BACK STEALTH FOR PE!
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Post by Social-Zero »

Monks are just fine , It requires skill to kill them but it requires even more skill to Play one.

All the rest is BULLSHIT
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Post by Ozambabbaz »

Addressing the PPU problem

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey folks,

Thanatos, Carnage and I have been discussing the PPU problem for quite some time now. The problem we see to the simple approaches (like removing foreign-casts and stuff) is, that the PPU is a pure support class. Just limiting his support abilities might solve a few problems, but would drastically reduce the PPUs fun-factor on the other hand, maybe even to the point where only very very few people would still want to play PPU. The trick is to reduce the tremendous impact of a PPU, without either making their numbers go up or make the PPU un-fun to play.

Here is our idea:
Either Shelter, or Deflector. If you're sheltered, you can't be deflectored, and the other way round. Maybe even put Heal into this equation too. Either you're sheltered, OR you're deflectored, OR you get healed. Get healed, and your shelter and your deflector go down. Get your Shelter, and your Deflector and your Heal go down.
Additionally to this, we would have to adress possible exploit causes of course, like casting a lowlevel Deflector to make the Holy Shelter go down, and we would have to adjust some mobs, like Area MC5, so they could be solved again (which wouldn't be possible with no shelter and heal at the same time atm).

What would this do? The PPU would not do the full support routine anymore, but not only would his impact on fights be reduced (on a way which wouldn't be resolved by MORE PPUs), he would be a little more fun to play because instead of always doing the "heal/shelter/deflector please!!!!!!" routine, there would be a tactical element. Does this guy need a heal? It would leave him vulnerable, because his shelter would go down.

But we would like to know what you think about our idea. Discuss.

PS: Oh yeah, we are aware of other problems, like parashock and soulclusters. Please do not discuss those here, we would simply like to know your opinion about this shelter/deflector/heal exclusive thing.

Update: These changes are supposed to only affect foreign casts. Selfcasts should remain unchanged, with everything possible that is. Furthermore, we think that we will leave Heal out of this for now. Meaning: Either Shelter or Deflector. Heal is always possible. By the way, with "we would have to adress possible exploit causes", I meant exactly what some people noted: that it shouldn't be possible to steal your enemys shelter by noob-buffing. NOTE: This is not our final decision.
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Last edited by Callash : Today at 17:45. Reason: Update
w000t!
thread is bloated to 11 pages, thats within 8 hours of the first sticky post :lol:

linky: http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=123027
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Post by NoNo »

just so u know, if they do this, expect to see me gone from game forever lol
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