Monk discussion

[Melonie]

I agree with NoNo. That is crazy. Leave the damned class alone.

[FN]

I think it definitely could use addressing.

As it stands, in a Fight of 10 Tank/PE/Spy/APU fighters vs 10 of the same, the side that gets a PPU will win. That's just the way it is, and should not be.

Adding a Tank to either side won't make much of a difference. One PE, nada. One Spy, nope. One APU, maybe. But Add a PPU, and it's no contest. No single class should be like that, in my opinion.

Granted, I dislike their idea, but I can't post there to say so, heh.

I still stick to my ideas above.

[NoNo]

ill post ur disgust of the idea for u

[Melonie]

Please do NoNo. I don't read the NC forums since FN no longer posts there. He had some of the best ideas.

[Myrlin]

I think it definitely could use addressing.

As it stands, in a Fight of 10 Tank/PE/Spy/APU fighters vs 10 of the same, the side that gets a PPU will win. That's just the way it is, and should not be.

Adding a Tank to either side won't make much of a difference. One PE, nada. One Spy, nope. One APU, maybe. But Add a PPU, and it's no contest. No single class should be like that, in my opinion.

Granted, I dislike their idea, but I can't post there to say so, heh.

I still stick to my ideas above.

Ok so what do you think of KKs suggestion of making shelter/deflector mutually exclusive?

[a4nic8er]

wtf?

APU's have Antiheal, Antibuff, Antishield, and Holy Antibuff (which I believe drops target's Heal Shelter AND Deflect). That seems like a very appropriate counter-measure to a PPUs effectiveness.

Sounds to me like people are whining to have PPUs nerfed when they should be whining AT their APUs for being asshats and not debuffing!

[FN]

Ok so what do you think of KKs suggestion of making shelter/deflector mutually exclusive?

Instituting balance in a game from a technical point in a game is one thing. Another is WHY things in a game are the way they are. How on Earth, from an RP and game background point of view, are they going to explain that only one buff can be cast on a player at once?

"This just in from Crahn HQ - an alarming outbreak of a neurological disease called 'Nerfthemonks' has been reported to be spreading among the NC community. The leading symptom to this condition is quite obvious. PSI Monks have been reported to lose the ability within their mental capacity to cast two modules on a Runner and maintain their stability..... blah blah fuckin blah"

That's stupid. There's no in-game way to validate their changes. I think the idea is ridiculous. Balance the existing spells by level of effectiveness and introducing NEW items for balance. As I said earlier:

PPUs should stay nearly invincible. That's the fun of playing the class. I've been seeing too many other MMORPG's where the 'healing' class is vital to a team, but fall over dead in high wind. I like the way NC's PPUs are as God's among men, but they should flat out not be able to kill anyone except with a Soulcluster. Remove the damage from Para's completely! However, I *do* think Heals, Shelters, and Deflectors, should be self-cast only, leaving GROUP and SANCTUM spells the weapon of choice for PPUs.

they need to bring spirit mod back

100% Agreed. Add the "ticking down counter" that Mosquito Drones have on heals.

BAM. Well on your way to being balanced. Also, if they want to "tone down" the number of Spirit SH's, go back to the "Jonny Whatshisface" GM is an NPC thing and be sure to only do it 25 times on the server over a month or so. Assuming Item Tracking is ever implemented, once one disappears, Jonny comes back out for a day. This could also be the start of a whole string of powerful rare items, in the hands of a few single individuals who can ultimately make a name for themselves, similar to the story behind the Wyatt Earp (read it, it's cool).

Also in that thread, hinch had mentioned a possibility of the rare weapons having a % chance of hitting and being a "critical".

http://forum.neocron.com/showpost.php?p ... tcount=109

1) apu anti shelter casts 50% quicker at a SLIGHTLY higher mana cost (anti shelt only NOT HAB) BUT it has a 30% chance to knock off any heals/deflectors already in place.

2) ALL rare weapons have a 3% chance to cancel a running shelter or heal or deflector and hense score a "critical" hit.

3) reduce effectiveness of ALL ppu spells by 12.76% (this number comes from a while ago when a few of us worked out the correct balance of the class )

4) lower the buff amount given to resists and hp from the booster spells. (only slightly)

5) The hybrid solution. Make ALL monks hybrid and make the 115/115 hybrid possiable again. With a couple of changes. First up lower the cap of all monk resists down a shit load to bring them inline with the NC canon which states they are frail and hardly look capable of standing up. A monks defences are ALL supposed to be psi based. Combine this with an overall effectiveness reduction of ALL spells by approx 15% remove the following spells. Psi shield, soul clusters, parashocks, psi combat boosts, anti poisions, anti db's, anti para's and all high lvl rares for monks leaving FA and HL as the only rares usable on the apu side and then true sight as the only ppu rare. Remove the ability for other classes to cast ANY spells on a monk and set limits on the monks so that after a certain lvl of points are spent in apu and ppu that they can no longer use "lower" spells ie: when at 115 ppu you cant use a tl3 heal anymore. Remove the ability for monks to cast any kind of weapon usage buff on themselfs (thinking mainly melee combat here)

1) Don't agree. % chances to remove an effect don't seem very "skillful" to me. Just don't like it.

2) Same thing. I don't like the % chance to completely remove something. BUT, going off this idea, perhaps a Rare Weapon with damage over say, 117%, has X% chance to "penetrate" the shelter/deflector for one shot. 117% giving a 10% chance, 118@15%, 119@20%, and 120@25%. So for instance:

Two tanks with S/D go into a fight. I have a CS that is 118/119/120/111. I'm going after a fully buffed Tank by myself. He has a crap CS of 102/111/99/105. His CS will never have a chance to penetrate my S/D. However, in my burst of 4, 3 hit. In those 3 hits, each has a 15% chance to completely disregard that there is a shelter and deflector present and the victim Tank's resists are what count.

This adds an element of tactics when you're getting your gear AND setting up your resists. Both matter more now. I think that's a lot better than everyone having a random chance to Anti-buff you for no real reason, other than "it's a rare".

3) I'm 1000% all for this. I know I said before that I felt PPU's buffs should be self-cast only and they should use groups/sanctums otherwise, but this is only with the current state of the spells. Reduce efffectiveness and they'd be fine to cast on everyone. In fact, reducing only foreign buffs would be fine as well.

4) I have never seen boosters as a problem. They're temporary and you can only have one of each 'genre' at a time. Don't really agree with this one.

5) I hate hybrids. But this idea might work if Monk's had the CON that was listed in their background as hinch says. But if you reduce the CON, where do those remaining points go to keep all the classes even in point distribution?

Another point of view to take it as would be, and yes this is kind of adapted from RYL, so sue me, change the individual interaction of a PPU into more of a group interactoin. Here's what I mean:

At the moment, a PPU directly effects each person he casts on. Why not introduce a set of Team-based Sanctum Spells that effect team members in a radius. We'll call them "Auras". Look at the Life Off in RYL - they cast Encourage and all their teammates gain an increase in HP and MP. So how about a PPU Aura that when cast, starts slowly draining PSI, but adds to a particular stat within your team. Couple this reducing the effects of foreign buffs, it becomes a matter of preference for PPUs and their teammates. Is my PSI best used casting S/D and Primaries or could I be better served as a minor team buffer and concentrate on keeping MYSELF alive. With S/D, one heal, and this new type of Aura running, a PPU and Tank should *barely* be able to take out Two Tanks and have a good possibility of losing. The buffs + aura should NOT make other players invincible as the buffs alone do now.

This is what the PPU's effectiveness need to be reduced to. Their OWN effects can stay God-like as far as I'm concerned. Honestly, I like running into a lone PPU and saying "ok, hopefully we're about to have a good challenge boys". A PPU's job and forced selection of 20 modules on them at all times deserves the ability to escape death most of the time. An APU is the perfect converse. In reality an APU can carry ONE rare on them in slot 1 and all boosters in the rest. He can die all day and loses little to nothing. The PPU shouldn't be punished in that capacity as he IS the other side of the spectrum.

[Zhut]

I've played the top 3 classes that this would effect the most with considerable experience. Though I haven't been in the game for a few months now, I feel there are things here that are mentioned and addressed, but not stressed.

1. Reducing blessed heal effectiveness would make any PPU below rank 50 not only entirely useless, but unable to level any higher, due to a lack of a supportable team in a hostile environment. The only PPUs left would be those that could already use a holy, and thus the entire point of doing so would be negated.

2. It has been said that PPUs are a SUPPORT class. They are THE SUPPORT class. Any team that has a PPU added to it is going to do better than a team without because of the nature of a PPU. It's the same damn thing in WoW, only the PPUs are easier to kill, and are therefore more carefully protected, and what's more, have some offense ability as well.

3. Group modules do buff mobs as well, so having a PPU in a cave would be a detriment to the group, rather than a help.

4. A good PPU can do well enough moving around against 7-8 people. A good PE with a pistol or rifle, the right setup, and a lot of agility (*COUGH*OZ*COUGH*) can fend off....AND KILL....up to 6 other people of average skill in other classes, if there is no PPU present. What everyone is suggesting would make the PPU vulnerable to 3-4 people. Who's gonna help out the team that has to take down the rifle PE?

5. APUs suck. No matter how good you are, if you're an APU, you will die fast. Shadow Dancer is a primary example, as is FN. As it stands, a couple of good APUs can easily drop a PPU, especially since most PPUs these days suck balls anyway, from what I understand.

6. Parashock should be eliminated entirely.

7. Quickbelts:

When I had my PPU, my belt, processor, and inventory were comprised of a booster, a holy rez, a holy heal, holy shelter, holy deflector, antipara, antidote, haz, melee, spy, heat, apu prime, heavy, pistol, rifle, drone, support, cst, truesight, heal san, group shelter, group deflector, group heal, holy para, para bolt, damage boost, db san, damage blocker, creature focus (93), creature focus (4), stam booster, and some other assorted equipment. Find room in that for half-life foreign cast primaries, alternate group shields, heal tracking, worrying about antibuffs and poison cast, and still keeping yourself alive through an attack in either pvp or pvm. I dare you.

8. Strap-ons. So you want to get rid of strap-on PPUs? Look at the source of the problem. It's not the class, it's the community. I've been an APU and dropped PPUs. I've been a hybrid and dropped PPUs. Hell, I've been a pistol PE and dropped PPUs. To nerf them again would not speak to the nature of the class, as their entire purpose is to not only stay alive, but keep others alive as well. There is no way to change the game mechanics in such a way as to keep PPUs in any way useful, and yet get rid of strap-on attack strategies.

<rant>I know I've asked this before, and I know you've answered. Have you ever played a near-capped PPU in combat, Oz? Those of us that have developed bragging rights playing that class have done so only because we've sat around for hours timing switchcast, silentcast, belt swapping and boosters to about a hundredth of a second. We've worked diligently tracking single targets in a large group of people weaving through eachother. We've pulled last man standing, trying ourselves against teams of people of different classes giving it their all. We have our inventory and processor windows in an exact spot in our RPOS, so that we can hit tab, click, twitch, release, twitch, click, twitch, release, tab, number, number in less than 1.5 seconds and have the correct module ready for use with enough psi pool to support it. Try it sometime, and then come back to me telling me exactly why they should be weaker.</rant>

So let's look at another alternative... Ditch the PPU subskill entirely, and make psi resist functional. Then what happens? Who's overpowered now? Everyone heals equally via medkits, no shelters or buffs, APUs deal the same damage as spies, and tanks are unstoppable. Isn't this the way the game was supposed to be according to the storyline anyway?

I'm sure some opinions expressed here will not be well liked, but I'm just tellin it like I see it.

[FN]

Everyone heals equally via medkits...

Reduce heals and increase medkit rates

[FN]

Sooooo.... got permission from Niddy - who wants to post something on the NC forums for me

[NoNo]

ah go on then, what u want posted?

[MaxFly]

Make self casts overrule foreign casts. Can buff team members only, Rez Para and DB anyone. Red SL runners are kicked from teams and may not join teams with anyone until SL goes at least yellow. Use of Damage boost counts towards fsm and sl loss same as any other offensive spell/weapon.
Make rare versions of freezer pistol and cannon, increase effectiveness ofanti para drugs to match that of a PPUs holy antifreeze/holy anti para (cant remember exact name). Increase drug haze accordingly (but not too severe).

That should help sort out the too unfair thingyabout PPUs helping bad sl runners and para being a gank tool (which it is).

Amen to a4nic8er's comment about apus not antibuffing enough.

Think a guy posted on NC forum about the Shelter and Def being self cast only, GMs/Devs posted to foreign cast either S or D and not both.

Classes seem pretty well balanced as they are without PPU buffs but APU plus PPU is greater than PE plus PPU as the apu gains all of the defensive PPU spells whereas the PE loses the heal shelter def basic resist advantage. Same with tank as APU.

Para definitely needs to have something done to get it sorted out. Games are supposed to be fun but there is a distinct lack of enjoyment about being spunked to the ground with no hope whatsoever of escaping.

[Zhut]

Make self casts overrule foreign casts.

This would serve to make PPUs even more difficult to kill.

Make rare versions of freezer pistol and cannon, increase effectiveness ofanti para drugs to match that of a PPUs holy antifreeze/holy anti para (cant remember exact name). Increase drug haze accordingly (but not too severe).

Holy Antipara has a RoF of 105/min with no side effects, and only about 20 pool consumption. Matching that with a drug in itself would give you carpel tunnel to a degree to which you would never be able to play NC again. Everyone would get glued, not just people the PPU plasters to the ground, and there would be about 8x as many complaints trying to get para removed from the game completely.

Think a guy posted on NC forum about the Shelter and Def being self cast only, GMs/Devs posted to foreign cast either S or D and not both.

Selfcast only is a solution that was presented to KK about 2.5 years ago. They still haven't tried it. It would work perfectly. Either S or D and not both is a solution, but honestly I think it's a crappy one.

Classes seem pretty well balanced as they are without PPU buffs but APU plus PPU is greater than PE plus PPU as the apu gains all of the defensive PPU spells whereas the PE loses the heal shelter def basic resist advantage. Same with tank as APU.

APU + PPU vs PE + PE = 1 living PE, one living PPU. Tank + PPU vs PE + PE = Tank and PPU alive. Tank + PPU vs Tank + Tank = dancing PPU. This is the way it's supposed to be based on the descriptions of the characters when you first begin the game.

Para definitely needs to have something done to get it sorted out. Games are supposed to be fun but there is a distinct lack of enjoyment about being spunked to the ground with no hope whatsoever of escaping.

Best solution....removal. ^_^

[MaxFly]

I was thinking about the anti para drugs being made better as it would tie up the PPU more if they had to para ppl all the while. It would detract from them being able to do other things, like heal and damage boost.

Of course this may lead to even more PPUs being present at OP wars to compensate for this. Which would make the problem even worse.

I agree totally that removing para is the way forward, it removes all skill from PvP. (unless of course you have your own PPU to anti para you, but wouldn't it be a bit boring if you couldnt go anywhere on your own?).

As for holy Para having only a mana consumption of 20, thats a bit daft as it has a tech level of over 100 (think, not pos about that). I know it doesn't do all that much damage in itself but it does have one hell of an effect.

Giving everyone powerful freezer abilities would make it annoying all round, but at least it'd be balanced. Like you say, there would be 8x as many calls for para to be removed.

I'd be interested to hear what ppl think of KKs suggestion of making heals self cast only. Would this lead to a load of hybrids that can cast blessed heal?

[Zhut]

As for holy Para having only a mana consumption of 20, thats a bit daft as it has a tech level of over 100 (think, not pos about that). I know it doesn't do all that much damage in itself but it does have one hell of an effect.

I know it seems like it should take more, but I can tell you it's remarkably efficient. In TH fleeing from 7 BD and 2 Crahn about a year and a half ago, I pretty much looked at the ground running toward my apartment, holding down the trigger on antipara. I think I got from command circle all the way to the hall leading to the apartment lifts in TH1 before my pool drained.

I'd be interested to hear what ppl think of KKs suggestion of making heals self cast only. Would this lead to a load of hybrids that can cast blessed heal?

Yes.

Thinking about it further, having a psi-skill based foreign-heal wouldn't necessarily require an APU heal to be added to the game. PPW adds to dmg enough to compensate for the negatives in PPU, I believe. A PE targeted with a holy heal should receive the same benefit that he would get if he were able to cast it on himself. Lemme do the math on it and see exactly what it would imply.