International Release

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FN
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International Release

Post by FN »

KK just doesn't get it. It's really sad actually.

http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?t=123650

This International Release without Item Tracking or NPC Playershops will fail. How the hell can the company who developed the game not comprehend how vital these two parts are to the game being a polished product?

So they'll sell some boxes to poor, unsuspecting customers. When those new customers lose items, "sorry, your loss, we don't track items even though we said we were going to 7 months ago". When these new customers can't get ahold of any items they need or want because the game was DESIGNED to force player trading between factions, yet supports no practical method to do so, they'll get frustrated and quit.

This International Release is just like the Asian Release:
"Oh, and by the way, the password feature on all the apartments people buy, it's broken so tell all the Asians to keep thier starter apartments for now. And poking? It's kind of a useless tradeskill as nobody's implants drop when they die. Oh, and when they die, they just disappear and you can't tell if they log off or tap out. And they'll most likely be overloaded and stuck at whatever GR they pick. But that's ok because they'll probably have to relog anyway as their Pants have a good chance of really being their Pistol Ammo in disguise. Hopefully they won't get the 0 Soullight/0 Cash bug and can relog straight away. If they lost any items while relogging, make sure to tell them straight out - tough shit, we can't track anything. This should reduce our helpdesk emails, thus improving the overall performance of the Internet and our servers. Should they need to reconstruct the lost item, wish them good luck since we made everything faction specific but lack the NPC Playershop feature to promote any type of decent economy..."
Why the hell does KK take 10 steps forward and 7 steps back at every point in their existence?
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Re: International Release

Post by Lachlan »

FN wrote:This International Release without Item Tracking or NPC Playershops will fail. How the hell can the company who developed the game not comprehend how vital these two parts are to the game being a polished product?
International release without Item Tracking?
Nidhogg wrote:Item Tracking

This is still on target for introduction with the international release. No change here.
IMHO, Playershops is a nice-to-have. It won't make or break the game. Playershops is something long-time tradeskillers will get the most use out of. There are other ways for trade to happen, namely Tech Haven. Sure, some things need to be done to enourage high-level players to help newbies, but these two items are just something people have grabbed onto as another reason to hate KK.

As I was levelling my newb characters I just rolled, I had trouble finding ressers/cstrs to build me new guns. When I asked on Trade for help, people told me to go to Tech Haven. Not so easy to do as 1/4. I think there should be some kind of transportation from both cities to Tech Haven, even if that means the TH GR is already tagged.

I appreciate and respect your opinion, but I think the bitterness really has gotten the better of you. It's probably in your best interest to forget that NC and KK exist for the time being.

That's not to say I'm looking at things with rose-colored glasses, but I've learned to accept NC as it is. I'm not constantly looking over the horizon for the next promised improvement whether it happens or not. That way, I'm not disappointed and I can appreciate playing the game as it is.

That being said, I think KK does now "get it". Thing have improved. Nidhogg has made great strides in keeping the community informed and getting the community's concerns heard by KK. KK asked for people's opinion on the proposed PPU solutions.

Rome wasn't built in a day, however.
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Re: International Release

Post by NoNo »

Lynx wrote: Rome wasn't built in a day, however.
true but it also didnt take them 4 years to plan it out
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Post by FN »

Patch #130 took NC to the version that is going to be released with the boxed version, right?

Item Tracking is not included in Patch #130, right?

So......... o_O
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Post by Weazle »

FN wrote:Patch #130 took NC to the version that is going to be released with the boxed version, right?

Item Tracking is not included in Patch #130, right?

So......... o_O
As far as I know, item tracking will be server side. Any changes done to a record on a database can be triggered. Your client would not know that item A used to be owned by person C which was passed from Person X.

We'll probably get some basic form of item tracking but I can easily see a decline in database performance.
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Re: International Release

Post by Lachlan »

NoNo wrote:
Lynx wrote: Rome wasn't built in a day, however.
true but it also didnt take them 4 years to plan it out
I'm not talking about from the beginning of time. I'm talking about how things have improved since Nidhogg was appointed the Community Liason. Things can only improve, that's the way I look at it.
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Post by NoNo »

ill agree with that alrite, puttin niddy in charge was the best decision they eveer made
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Post by Lachlan »

CoDi wrote:During the maintainance, we'll release a new patch, which will update your Neocron 2 client to the same version as the client shipped for the upcoming european release.

The patch contains new sector files only, which are not connected to the game yet. This will not happen until the next patch.
I would infer from this that there is at least one more patch to activate the International Release features in our clients. It was also stated that there will be additional content patches coming.

As Weazle said, Item Tracking is server-side, but database performance should not suffer because it was stated early on that there is a separate item tracking database.
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Post by Myrlin »

Lynx wrote:As Weazle said, Item Tracking is server-side, but database performance should not suffer because it was stated early on that there is a separate item tracking database.
I want to be optimistic and say that KK planned out item tracking properly and that having a separate database means that they won't have any performance degredation, but honestly I can't. KK's track record has been pretty bad so far.

Looking at this from a technical side, since I know you know IT stuff Lynx, a separate database is great for queries, but something has to put that data in there. That means that every action in the current database needs to trigger an update in the new tracking database. These new triggers means processing for the current database (even if it's just a miniscule amount for each transaction) that didn't exist previously. It also means LAN traffic between the database servers that didn't exist previously. I wouldn't be surprised if item-tracking introduced some odd bugs because some action is waiting on a query of the new database and that query was slowed down because it bumped into traffic between the servers. It's a situation that they could plan for and yet still have problems with because they can't test with the thousands of users they will have at retail.
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Post by Lachlan »

Myrlin wrote:I want to be optimistic and say that KK planned out item tracking properly and that having a separate database means that they won't have any performance degredation, but honestly I can't. KK's track record has been pretty bad so far.


My only comment to this has to be one of perspective. Compared to other MMORPGs who have done a good job of providing a stable client with fast databases and servers for a game that is tick-based, yes KK doesn't have a great track record. However, when you consider that NC is not tick-based, it's a nearly-real-time FPS with many more updates between the client and server every couple of seconds than any other MMORPG in existence I would say KK has done a fantastic job.

The fact that a small company could produce a product that has all of the unique groundbreaking features that NC has is pretty amazing to me. How many other MMORPGs have successfully balanced FPS combat that takes skills into account?

Ok, so KK hasn't done everything with NC they could have. They've fallen short in the past, but let's give them at least some of their props for what they have done.
Myrlin wrote:Looking at this from a technical side, since I know you know IT stuff Lynx
Yes, I'm a capacity planner. It's my job to take these things into account, but I have a lot bigger budget. :P
Myrlin wrote:a separate database is great for queries, but something has to put that data in there. That means that every action in the current database needs to trigger an update in the new tracking database. These new triggers means processing for the current database (even if it's just a miniscule amount for each transaction) that didn't exist previously. It also means LAN traffic between the database servers that didn't exist previously. I wouldn't be surprised if item-tracking introduced some odd bugs because some action is waiting on a query of the new database and that query was slowed down because it bumped into traffic between the servers. It's a situation that they could plan for and yet still have problems with because they can't test with the thousands of users they will have at retail.
I have to agree with you to some extent, but you're missing something I think. First, it's been stated that there is an item tracking database for each server cluster, not one for all server clusters.

Disclaimer: I have no knowledge of the servers and how they are configured, this is pure speculation.

Let's say we have a cluster of servers, each with their own "function". For the purposes of illustration, let's say we have three types of servers. The game server, the database server, and the item tracking server.

I think of the item tracking database like a log file. It primarily receives and logs what happens to a particular item. In other words, it's primarily update-only. GMs and KK would be able to use tools to query the history of a particular item, but regular players don't interact with item tracking.

The game server receives an event that affects inventory. It fires off an "update" query to both the database server updating the players current inventory (or gogo or cabinet or whatever) and item tracking database server in parallel. It must must wait for the database to say "ok, update received and here's the new inventory". For item tracking database, however, it just needs a confirmation that the event was stored succesfully.

Done this way, you may have a slight degradation in performance from the game servers, but it doesn't put an extra load on the existing database server. The item tracking database doesn't need to know anything about what kind of item it is, just what's happened to it. A simple query could tie the unique item number in the item tracking database with the unique item number in the inventory database, no?

At any rate, that's how I'd implement item tracking. :P
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Post by Coo »

Myrlin wrote: because they can't test with the thousands of users they will have at retail.
Don't you mean hundreds? ;)
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Post by Weazle »

Myrlin wrote: Looking at this from a technical side, since I know you know IT stuff Lynx, a separate database is great for queries, but something has to put that data in there. That means that every action in the current database needs to trigger an update in the new tracking database. These new triggers means processing for the current database (even if it's just a miniscule amount for each transaction) that didn't exist previously. It also means LAN traffic between the database servers that didn't exist previously. I wouldn't be surprised if item-tracking introduced some odd bugs because some action is waiting on a query of the new database and that query was slowed down because it bumped into traffic between the servers. It's a situation that they could plan for and yet still have problems with because they can't test with the thousands of users they will have at retail.
It really depends on the hardware ..... fiber optics using gigabit ethernet makes transport between machines as fast as writing to the hard drive. Hard drive farms dedicated to solely keep data as network attached storage. Of course its pretty serious hardware with a hefty cost.

The question of 2 machines/RAID farms or whatever cmmunicating to each other ain't a problem as there are specialised hardware for it. Its whether they've planned the server architecture out thoroughly. If they run the item tracking and NC database on he one machine, everything will slow down. If they haven't optimised the transport protocols you'll get slowdown. If the triggers & database queries are inefficient, then you'll get a slowdown.

But as someone mentioned it earlier they're using server clusters to spread the load of processing. But even then if its not setup right you'll get performance issues.

KK are renting servers as far as I know and thus all technology related to it is probably sub-contracted to Russians (no shit, my company has used Russian developers because they are cheap).

In the end .... I don't think KK have the resources or manpower to pull it off with much success. Sure they'll get item tracking in, but what they won't tell you is that some things aren't implemented and that only enough is there to do a basic check for anything dodgy. I don't expect that items to have a full history but don't expect it to be greater than 3-5 item transfers between players.

But hey .... KK might have pull their asses up and done something. Sometimes companies doing really bad say as little as possible so that investors will still pour cash into the company. Do you think KK would still be here if they told every shitty thing happening in the company? I don't think so.
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Post by Myrlin »

Coo wrote:
Myrlin wrote: because they can't test with the thousands of users they will have at retail.
Don't you mean hundreds? ;)
Honestly I typed hundreds then erased it cause I wanted to play nice ;)

As for the other comments, I agree with both Lynx and Weazle. I guess we'll just have to hope for the best.
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Post by Dajuda »

Whats so big about item tracking .. I don't think it's gonna bring NC back to life.
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Post by Chosen One »

im going to buy 2 copies....not sure why tho...mabe i can sell them to my friends down here in Florida...it might have some change in the population :P
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